DER SPIEGEL: Mr. Olmert, after the October 7 terrorist attack by Hamas, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz told the German parliament: "The security of Israel is Germany’s reason of state." Is the current German government living up to that promise?

Olmert: I think after the October 7 massacre, Scholz emerged in a very impressive manner. I see the reference to Germany’s reason of state as a moral commitment. Leave aside the consequences of what happened later: the war against Hamas, the bombing in Gaza, the humanitarian aspects. The initial thing was that something terrible happened. Under normal circumstances, we do not need the support of anyone. And there is nothing militarily Germany can do that we can’t get from the United States anyway. But the moral support of Germany is of great significance at a time when the moral foundations of Israel are challenged, questioned and criticized.

DER SPIEGEL: Israel’s ambassador to Berlin, Ron Prosor, called Germany’s decision to abstain in a UN General Assembly vote "more than disappointing." Do you think Germany should vote side by side with Israel more often?

Olmert: In principle, yes. However, I’ll be very honest with you. Everything that can bring down Netanyahu is worthwhile. Outside of this aspect, obviously I like Germany to be in favor of Israel. But if the vote is about a two-state solution, how can I expect Germany to vote against the two-state solution when I advocate for it everywhere?

DER SPIEGEL: Do you think a two-state solution is still feasible?

Olmert: I think that Israel has to declare now, today, that at the end of the military campaign, it will pull out of Gaza. We need the Europeans and the Americans to send a military intervention force to Gaza for the interim period because the Arabs and the Palestinians will not come and we, Israel, should not stay there. To convince the Americans and the Europeans, we have to present a political horizon. Immediately after the military campaign, we should embark on negotiations for a two-state solution. I think that there is no other political solution.

DER SPIEGEL: Netanyahu and his extremist coalition partners are making no effort to do so.

Olmert: Yes, and that is another reason why he has to leave right now. So, when you ask me about my attitude to the German voting attitude in the UN: Every vote that can help Israel get rid of this obnoxious, dangerous government is acceptable. But when we have a new government, you better be careful.

DER SPIEGEL: How quickly will there be a new government?

Olmert: In mid-2024, we will definitely have one. Within a few weeks it will become apparent that the maximum we can get from this military campaign is below the minimum which is reasonable for the present government.

DER SPIEGEL: You think it's not possible to dismantle Hamas?

Olmert: We are not going to destroy or dismantle Hamas completely and we are not going to remain in Gaza. We will have to pull out 90 percent of the Israeli army. The most that we can think of doing are specific overnight operations in order to get rid of specific targets. But this is much below the expectations that this government created. The reserve soldiers will come back bitter and upset. Some 150,000 Israelis do not live in their homes. They can't come to the south because there are no houses. In the north, they do have houses, but they don't want to take the risk of being subject to a similar operation. And the government doesn't have the credibility to convince them. All these angry people join the people that were sick and tired of Netanyahu before because of the judiciary reform and nepotism. The bitterness and disappointment will build up into a rage that will erupt like a vulcano. And at the peak of it, Bibi will not be prime minister anymore.

DER SPIEGEL: What must happen so that the army can withdraw from the Gaza Strip and the government can say: We have achieved at least two or three goals there?

Olmert: Most of Gaza is nearly completely destroyed. I think at the end, central Gaza will be completely destroyed. Possibly the army will be successful in eliminating one of the leaders. We could have eliminated Mohammed Deif and Yehiyeh Sinwar long ago.

DER SPIEGEL: Please explain.

Olmert: I know that it was offered to Netanyahu time and again that we can eliminate both of them in the last couple of years. But Bibi didn’t want that.

DER SPIEGEL: Were you in favor of the 2011 deal in which 1,027 Palestinian prisoners were released in exchange for the Israeli hostage Gilad Shalit?

Olmert: No, when I was prime minister, I declined to make a deal that would have been 10 times better for Israel. Under my tenure, we were talking about 324 prisoners, and all of them were minor terrorists. When I was about to leave office, we received the news from the Egyptians that Hamas was prepared to consider a deal. They knew that Netanyahu was going to replace me and thought he would be much tougher. In the end, I declined, Netanyahu came and released many more terrorists in 2011, including some of their leaders and Yehiyeh Sinwar. Now, Netanyahu calls him a Nazi, but at the time, he released him and helped make him the leader of Hamas.

DER SPIEGEL: In 2021, you said that Hamas doesn’t really constitute a significant miltiary threat to Israel. Would you repeat that statement following the October 7 attacks?

Olmert: When Bibi says Hamas constitutes a serious military threat to the very existence of Israel, it is not just a gross exaggeration. It is a living proof of total nervous collapse. Five-thousand fighters, 10,000 or even 15,000 without tanks and planes constitute an existential threat to the state of Israel? This is bullshit.

DER SPIEGEL: But the terrorists planned the October 7 operation in a very sophisticated way.

Olmert: When you open the doors and you say to the thieves: Listen, I'm going to sleep now, the safe is over there, and he takes it and goes away, then he's a threat? It means you are an idiot. Hamas is an enemy. I do not underestimate them. When they are hiding underground in Gaza, it becomes a problem because the cost of eliminating them is high: for the civilians in Gaza, for your own soldiers and for the hostages.

DER SPIEGEL: So why is October 7, 2023, frequently compared to the Egyptian surprise attack on Yom Kippur in 1973?

Olmert: What caused October 7 was not a failure of Israeli intelligence or Israeli technologies. What caused the terror attacks was arrogance. The arrogance that we have been looking down on the Arabs. What can they do – they are Arabs! So, in 1973, they proved to us that they can be smart and sophisticated. They fooled us and caught us with our pants down. And now they did the same. We saw everything but we didn't believe it. Because of our arrogance.

DER SPIEGEL: Was it a mistake to unilaterally pull out of Gaza in 2005?

Olmert: There were terror attacks and rocket attacks before 2005. All this is forgotten and now blamed on the disengagement. The continuing and consistent building of Hamas was a calculated strategy of Netanyahu. Why did he do it? Because the alternative was to deal with the Palestinian Authority.

DER SPIEGEL: Do you still consider Fatah and Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) to be a partner for peace?

Olmert: I'm in touch with Abu Mazen to this day. I still hope to have Abu Mazen sign a statement that endorses my plan for a two-state solution based on the 1967 borders, the Arab League peace initiative and making the Arab part of Jerusalem the capital of the Palestinian state. This is a very ambitious peace plan for Israel and for the Palestinians. But there will never be a better one. And if we want to achieve peace, we need to step forward and make this a platform for future peace. Don’t get me wrong. The Palestinians in the West Bank never filed a request to become members of the Zionist movement. They’re our enemies. But is there anyone else that you can make peace with? If you don’t have anybody else, then you have to sit with him and try and sort out the best possible solution that will be good for the state of Israel.

DER SPIEGEL: Many people see Israeli society going in a different direction, away from negotiations on a two-state solution.

Olmert: Sooner or later, we will have to come to terms with ourselves and we will have to answer the questions: What then? OK, we’ll destroy them. We kill all the terrorists. Do we want to to take control of 5 million Palestinians without giving them political rights? Human rights? Civil rights? Voting rights? This is bullshit. Some people are still in that mode of telling themselves the lies that they think they can believe in. Eventually, they will understand.

DER SPIEGEL: But for that you need a strong Israeli leader to convince them.